Runescape: viva la update
Arguing online with me is like leading a WW1 trench charge...
You might win a few medals, but they're probably gonna be rewarded posthumously.
Submitting...
Quote | Yoink posted on 10.27.09 | 06:46Haw haw haw! Tsun, anyone can see that you're just a copy-and-paste of that other Atavian, Bob!
Yuk yuk yuk!
??? I don't know what what are you talking about or what's the point.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.27.09 | 13:24The only reason runescape graphics "suck" is because you cannot see to the horizon or sky. (or if jagex hasn't updated it in a long time, like some weapons)
I would have screenshots to compare with these screenshots from WoW, just so you have really nothing to say as far as me being wrong goes. However, when I tried to log onto RS to get a screenshot of the environment in HD mode, my browser froze before it even loaded an advert, and since this post was just about done, and I must now remake it, I've decided against trying to get ingame screenshots of RS.
Anyway, it seems you have forced me to remake the post I lost last night, since apparently googling pictures is too hard for you. Have a look at these screenshots. One shows the vastly superior level of detail in the environment of WoW, the other shows the vastly superior level of detail in the environment and the incredible amount of said detail that there is and can be seen at one time in WoW. Compare those to similar images from RS. Comparing the first images, the ones that show the incredible detail close-up, shows quite clearly that one has grass and rocks that come from polygon hell, the other has shrubbery that looks fairly realistic. Comparing the second images, which not only show the scope of what can be seen at one time(and how detailed it can be regardless of size), but also compare castle to castle, in a way. If you want to see a true castle from WoW, you need only look at Icecrown Citadel. It's quite clear which castle is better. I would also compare to Valiance Keep, since it's more of a castle than Icecrown is.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.27.09 | 13:24The environment in runescape is ALOT more detailed than any other MMO i can think of. There's alway something to examine or interact with. No empty space, heck even the desert lacks the desertness because there's so much stuf there. You can examine every single cactus and plant, and even cut some water from some plants to keep you alive.
Just because you can't click on an insignificant bush and press "Examine" in other MMOs doesn't mean RS is better. Other MMOs, you can actually walk up to the insignificant bush and zoom in your camera so close that you can see the leaves. You just never want to because it's an insignificant bush, anyway. If Jagex had put the time it took to make every tiny little stupid doodad in the game examinable into making a new feature, imagine where the game would be.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.27.09 | 13:24ps. other than wolves, i can't recall any two "different" monsters that look the same but in different colours.
Dragons, Dagannoths, titans, pretty much any human dwarf, elf, etc., shades, minotaurs, skeletons, monkeys, unicorns, animated armor, chickens, spiders, seasonal elementals, giants... Must I really go through the entire database of mobs and pick out all the ones that look like other ones?
Yep.Quote | Tsun posted on 10.27.09 | 13:24On somewhat related note, the inventory icons of items in runescape actually show what the item looks like.
Also, I have found a quest that specifically tells a piece of the history of EE, similar to several RS quests. Remains of the Maar: Goliath Mounds tells the story of how the Maar became the Goliaths. I'm fairly certain there were others before it, but before I got to midlands I was more interested in levelling up quickly than in the individual quests. 
Quote | Tyranastrasz posted on 10.26.09 | 21:00
whole paragraph of WoW vs. RS
I don't know how else to tell you this, but about 90% of the videos of WoW vs. RS is outdated on terms of RS (atleast RS to my knowledge). They even compare 2003 RS graphics when the video was made like 2 years ago. WoW nerds are very biased.
Quote4: World of Warcraft weapons are simple-looking without glowing lights? What of RuneScape's Dragon Claws? Let's look at what WoW does when they take the claws of a dragon and turn them into a weapon, shall we?
Did you even understand what I meant in the previous post? I said WoW weapons (along with EE and Flyff) have too much glow and color, instead of looking like plausible weapons. You just proved me right.Thanks.
Quote
In EE, there's several different armors you can use, even when you are just starting. There is more than just "Bronze, Leather, or these blue robes." That is my point.
Others might, and it's still against the rules of this forum and the game itself, regardless of whether or not you agree with it.
You forgot Iron. Not sure why it matters how many armor types people get when they start out in RuneScape, seeing as about every 5 levels or so, you get a new type. The best armor in F2P takes 40 Defense, which is very small in experience needed. I even have a level 17 with 40 Def.
QuoteDid you even read the part of my post that you quoted when you said this?
I sure don't remember getting an EXP Lamp when I started playing back in 7th grade. For random events, every once in a while, but if I recall that was after RS 2 was released. So no, getting three when you start has not always been around.
First of all, Gamespot users and Gamespot official critics are not the same. That's like saying just because we live in America, Tom Cruise is an accurate representative of us.
You are really that dumb, are you? You are actually saying there is CURRENTLY no EXP lamps, despite the fact you played years ago, and I still play RuneScape. So, you think RuneScape never updates? Don't know how to break it to you, but it's an average updating of once per week.
I'm saying gaming reviewers don't matter to me, since believe them is believing their opinion about a game, rather than your own.
QuoteSecond, the text I have bolded. OTHER MMO's? When was the last time you saw someone in real life walking around with teal plate armor and baby blue gloves? When was the last time you saw a goldsmith wearing golden gloves while he is practicing his trade? Do not presume to speak of a lack of realism in a fantasy game when the game you support is guilty of the same exact thing.
I never said RuneScape was true to life, but compared to the swords real people couldn't lift with all their effort, and the other many things in WoW, RuneScape wins in terms of realism. I'd like to say your links to the WoW weapons, helped prove me right again, which they did. The fact that RuneScape has many humans, and mythical creatures based on real myths.
Minotaur = Real myth
Dragons = Yup, real myth
Ogres, Trolls, Goblins = I've heard of them
Witches, Wizards, Elves, Dwarves, Unicorns, etc. = Real myths
Werewolves, Frankenstein Monster, Ghosts, Mummies = Just like the above mentioned, also in RS.
Never heard of the Alliance or Hoarde creatures in old horror stories. Realistic creatures, humans, even the skills mimic those similar to laborious tasks in real life. Where in life do I get a sword bigger than I am? Where do I get an aura, where are those other races as well?
Quote
Darth, saying that Runescapes graphics are passable made me laugh.
A free browser game that can be played on any computer, for such a game, those graphics are very good. I've even see N64 and RS on 2 screens at the same time, and RS looked much better. The N64 is 64-bit graphics, and do you even look at the terrain of EE? You can definitely see the repeated pattern on the ground. Next time you log in to EE, look at the shape of the tree. Notice many straight lines curved to form it?
QuoteEEs monsters are born from polygon hell? Well, I'm no EE fanboy, and some of the monsters are a bit silly, but they all display a high level of design.
Star Fox got you there. Some monsters are nice in EE, but not all. Not sure what game you are playing.
QuoteAnd why the hell do trees need to look realistic? I haven't played wow or flyff, but EE's trees are lovely cartoony trees, which look just as nice for an MMO.
I'm pretty sure if the devs can spend time on the trees, they can spend time on other stuff. We are not saying which graphics look like lovely cartoony trees, you are saying RS doesn't have good graphics, which for RS, mean realistic. I've played Flyff and EE, I can say...they look very similar.
QuoteSimple looking weapons? I know EE has a good variety of them, with different styles, engraved patterns, shapes and such of each type of weapon, and from what I've seen of WOW there's a great diversity of weapon designs, whatever else is wrong with it.
Runescape's weapons are functional, but ultimately all much the same. And sure, RS' combat isn't unnecessarily flashy, but some flashiness could be a good thing in the drab, boring world of RS.
Maybe there was a miscommunication of something, but RS has the simple, realistic-looking weapons. For EE, can't say the same. Remember, when you say RS graphics aren't good or "passable", you are saying they don't look realistic. After all, Jagex strives to make a realistic MMO.
Boring world of RS? Matter of opinion....
RS and EE both garbage graphics - it's about the game play.
Which EE lasts until around lv 30 or so then it becomes garbage game play too.
At least until groves and more content comes out.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45
I don't know how else to tell you this, but about 90% of the videos of WoW vs. RS is outdated on terms of RS (atleast RS to my knowledge). They even compare 2003 RS graphics when the video was made like 2 years ago. WoW nerds are very biased.
If you can provide up-to-date screenshots to compare to the screenshots I provided, and they are better than WoW graphics, then you can talk about how wrong I am. However, I doubt you can.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45Did you even understand what I meant in the previous post? I said WoW weapons (along with EE and Flyff) have too much glow and color, instead of looking like plausible weapons. You just proved me right.Thanks.
So what you're saying is in WoW, swords, which are quite clearly swords, don't look like swords, just because they glow with magical energy? Yes, that makes total sense.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45You forgot Iron. Not sure why it matters how many armor types people get when they start out in RuneScape, seeing as about every 5 levels or so, you get a new type. The best armor in F2P takes 40 Defense, which is very small in experience needed. I even have a level 17 with 40 Def.
Because there is no variety in everyone level 25(or any other level before 50) having the same exact gear if they're the same type of player.
No, I'm saying EXP lamps are new. That's what I've been saying since you brought them up. You are apparently the one who is that dumb.Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45You are really that dumb, are you? You are actually saying there is CURRENTLY no EXP lamps, despite the fact you played years ago, and I still play RuneScape. So, you think RuneScape never updates? Don't know how to break it to you, but it's an average updating of once per week.
I'm saying gaming reviewers don't matter to me, since believe them is believing their opinion about a game, rather than your own.
And I'm saying gamers (actual gamers who don't get paid to review games; basically, the people who post on gamespot) often have valid opinions.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45I never said RuneScape was true to life, but compared to the swords real people couldn't lift with all their effort, and the other many things in WoW, RuneScape wins in terms of realism. I'd like to say your links to the WoW weapons, helped prove me right again, which they did. The fact that RuneScape has many humans, and mythical creatures based on real myths.
Minotaur = Real myth
Dragons = Yup, real myth
Ogres, Trolls, Goblins = I've heard of them
Witches, Wizards, Elves, Dwarves, Unicorns, etc. = Real myths
Werewolves, Frankenstein Monster, Ghosts, Mummies = Just like the above mentioned, also in RS.
@Bold:Then don't imply that RuneScape is.
The weapons are all quite obviously scaled in size for what race is wielding them, so that they are realistic based on the strength of the person holding them. Hence why you don't see a gnome running around with a tauren-sized two-hand sword.
And yeah, WoW enemies are based on real(and by real I mean people have thought of them before, not that they actually exist; you would do well to remember that definition of real from now on, as well, especially since it will come up again in this post) fantasies as well. Dragons? Check. Zombies? Check. Demons? Check. Ghosts? Check. Abnormally large animals? Check. God-like beings? Check. Evil robots? Check. Elementals? Check.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45Never heard of the Alliance or Hoarde creatures in old horror stories. Realistic creatures, humans, even the skills mimic those similar to laborious tasks in real life. Where in life do I get a sword bigger than I am? Where do I get an aura, where are those other races as well?
Your first sentence and the first two words of your second sentence are quite clearly disproven by my above statement. In regards to the rest of the second sentence, the humans and skills in WoW are also similar to real and imaginary humans and professions, too. In regards to the third sentence, they are from the same place that runecrafting, elementals, dragons, witches, minotaurs, and ever other imaginary thing in RuneScape comes from: the imagination. The ones in WoW are just more detailed and stylized, in most cases, than what you see in fables and the like.
Next time you log into RS, look at one of the trees. Notice the many straight lines that aren't curved (and not just because that's the definition of a straight line- a line that doesn't curve) to form it? I do. That's what I, and most of the internet, like to call "polygon hell"Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45A free browser game that can be played on any computer, for such a game, those graphics are very good. I've even see N64 and RS on 2 screens at the same time, and RS looked much better. The N64 is 64-bit graphics, and do you even look at the terrain of EE? You can definitely see the repeated pattern on the ground. Next time you log in to EE, look at the shape of the tree. Notice many straight lines curved to form it?
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45Star Fox got you there. Some monsters are nice in EE, but not all. Not sure what game you are playing.
Just like in RuneScape. Yeah. If you want, I can pull some screenshots of horribly-undetailed monsters off RuneHQ or Zybez, too.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45I'm pretty sure if the devs can spend time on the trees, they can spend time on other stuff. We are not saying which graphics look like lovely cartoony trees, you are saying RS doesn't have good graphics, which for RS, mean realistic. I've played Flyff and EE, I can say...they look very similar.
So visible polygons is realistic? The laws of realism are actually altered in RS? Wow. Didn't know that Jagex was so influential in society today.
Quote | Darth Vader posted on 10.27.09 | 18:45
Maybe there was a miscommunication of something, but RS has the simple, realistic-looking weapons. For EE, can't say the same. Remember, when you say RS graphics aren't good or "passable", you are saying they don't look realistic. After all, Jagex strives to make a realistic MMO.
Boring world of RS? Matter of opinion....
Please, tell me the last time you saw a flat(not shiny or reflective at all) rounded two-hand sword that looked more like a large construction-paper baton with a yellow and brown handle in real life?
You say Jagex is striving for a realistic MMO? When their game is missing about half of the visible spectrum as far as colors go and the resolution isn't even close enough to compare to real life? Seriously, if you want to say that these cacti look exactly like these ones, be my guest. It doesn't make you any more right, though.
We aren't saying they don't look realistic because they dont look like the generally-accepted concept of what a sword looks like. We're saying they don't look realistic because they look like a child's approximation of what a sword looks like. The concept of "realistic" when it comes to fantasy games doesn't mean "oh yeah, that sword could exist in real life," because it's a fantasy game. The concept of "realistic" when it comes to fantasy games does mean "oh yeah, if magic existed and someone made a two-handed sword for a bull-man with the the strength of five men and then enchanted it with magical runes, that's what it'd look like."
Quote | Tyranastrasz posted on 10.27.09 | 19:37Anyway, it seems you have forced me to remake the post I lost last night, since apparently googling pictures is too hard for you. Have a look at these screenshots. One shows the vastly superior level of detail in the environment of WoW, the other shows the vastly superior level of detail in the environment and the incredible amount of said detail that there is and can be seen at one time in WoW. Compare those to similar images from RS. Comparing the first images, the ones that show the incredible detail close-up, shows quite clearly that one has grass and rocks that come from polygon hell, the other has shrubbery that looks fairly realistic. Comparing the second images, which not only show the scope of what can be seen at one time(and how detailed it can be regardless of size), but also compare castle to castle, in a way. If you want to see a true castle from WoW, you need only look at Icecrown Citadel. It's quite clear which castle is better. I would also compare to Valiance Keep, since it's more of a castle than Icecrown is.
Here you go showing the most impressive castles of WoW and comparing it to the first castle of runescape you pop up to after passing the tutorial.
As i said, you cannot see the horizon/sky in runescape. If you could, i'd show you a picture of the Castle Drakan. (skip to 2:50 and keep in mind that's not in high detail) (warning: cat love in the ending lol)
All of your "superior details" are in the horizon. Which cannot be seen in runescape as i believe i already said.
Not to mention your screenshots are from so far away, that you can't see the emptiness when you get a little closer.
Quote | Tyranastrasz posted on 10.27.09 | 19:37Just because you can't click on an insignificant bush and press "Examine" in other MMOs doesn't mean RS is better. Other MMOs, you can actually walk up to the insignificant bush and zoom in your camera so close that you can see the leaves. You just never want to because it's an insignificant bush, anyway. If Jagex had put the time it took to make every tiny little stupid doodad in the game examinable into making a new feature, imagine where the game would be.
I didn't mean this, runescape doesn't have pointless empty space, and there's alot of things everywhere. Of course there's SOME empty space, but it most likely includes trees that can be chopped down and other things.
Now, before you go "baww there's dwarves it's not pointless!", i mean that detailed ground, couple huge trees and dwarves with quest does not make the place detailed.
Quote | Tyranastrasz posted on 10.27.09 | 19:37Dragons, Dagannoths, titans, pretty much any human dwarf, elf, etc., shades, minotaurs, skeletons, monkeys, unicorns, animated armor, chickens, spiders, seasonal elementals, giants... Must I really go through the entire database of mobs and pick out all the ones that look like other ones?
You misunderstood me. I mean DIFFERENT monsters. Ofcourse many goblins look the same, but i mean for example hobgoblin compared to normal goblin.
Eartheternal for example has like 3 monsters(out of what i can recall as a lvl ~18 player) that look exactly the same but in different sizes/colours, and that's the first plant enemy you have to kill when you get out of the starting island. Yet they're still supposedly a different mob.
THIS IS JUST A SINGLE EXAMPLE. I'm not going to search for every similar case.
Quote | Tyranastrasz posted on 10.27.09 | 21:48Please, tell me the last time you saw a flat(not shiny or reflective at all) rounded two-hand sword that looked more like a large construction-paper baton with a yellow and brown handle in real life?
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.27.09 | 13:24The only reason runescape graphics "suck" is because you cannot see to the horizon or sky. (or if jagex hasn't updated it in a long time, like some weapons)
Here's a picture of a new 2h without antialiasing.
It has reflections too which cannot be seen on the pic.
Quote | Tyranastrasz posted on 10.27.09 | 04:00What of RuneScape's Dragon Claws? Let's look at what WoW does when they take the claws of a dragon and turn them into a weapon, shall we?
Claws are weapon similar to wolverine's blades. They are made of metal.
Dragon is just a name for a level 60 metal made by the dragonkin.
Claw weapon + "dragon" metal = dragon claws.
Plus the graphics for dragon claws is very old, such as the 2h image you linked.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11
Here you go showing the most impressive castles of WoW and comparing it to the first castle of runescape you pop up to after passing the tutorial.
As i said, you cannot see the horizon/sky in runescape. If you could, i'd show you a picture of the Castle Drakan. (skip to 2:50 and keep in mind that's not in high detail) (warning: cat love in the ending lol)
Youtube's not letting me skip to anywhere. It keeps saying "An error occured" Also, pretty much every castle in WoW's newest expansion looks that good or better.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11All of your "superior details" are in the horizon. Which cannot be seen in runescape as i believe i already said.
Not to mention your screenshots are from so far away, that you can't see the emptiness when you get a little closer.
Sure, they're in the horizon. When you get closer, they become the foreground, and they still look awesome. Also, that link doesn't work. Try again please.
You all talk of realism? In WoW, the deserts are desert. The frozen tundra is frozen tundra. In RS, there's always some plant or something that has no business being where it is. Take, for example, that desert. If you die that quickly from a heat stroke, then the climate is similar to that of Phoenix, Arizona in July. I dare you to find me a picture of the landscape around Phoenix, Arizona that has as many plants and animals in it as the desert in RS.
Also, @ your links:
desert, frozen tundra with an outpost for drinks, aaaaaand grassland inhabited by murderous shadow elementals.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11
Now, before you go "baww there's dwarves it's not pointless!", i mean that detailed ground, couple huge trees and dwarves with quest does not make the place detailed.
Yes, actually, it does make a place detailed. And with the quest, far from pointless.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11You misunderstood me. I mean DIFFERENT monsters. Ofcourse many goblins look the same, but i mean for example hobgoblin compared to normal goblin.
the hobgoblins are bigger models of goblins with orange skin and a couple pieces of extra armor.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11
Eartheternal has like 3 monsters(out of what i can recall as a lvl ~18 player) that look exactly the same but in different sizes/colours, and that's the first plant enemy you have to kill when you get out of the starting island. Yet they're still supposedly a different mob.
THIS IS JUST A SINGLE EXAMPLE. I'm not going to search for every similar case.
Just like monsters from RS such as the wolves, dragons, demons, trolls, titans, zombies, skeletons, and everything else I listed in my previous post.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11Here's a picture of a new 2h without antialiasing.
It has reflections too which cannot be seen on the pic.
Still doesn't look exactly like this, as your partner in crime, Darth Vader, claims.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 14:11
Claws are weapon similar to wolverine's blades. They are made of metal.
Dragon is just a name for a level 60 metal made by the dragonkin.
Claw weapon + "dragon" metal = dragon claws.
Plus the graphics for dragon claws is very old, such as the 2h image you linked.
I'll get to this when I have time later today.
I'm not quite sure what's your problem of ignoring my points.
Who said I was talking about realism? i'm not trying to prove that runescape graphics are realistic or ps3 quality. I'm saying that even thought runescape is restricted to java and a browser, it's graphics doesn't suck.
The empty space is pointless. THE EMPTY SPACE IS POINTLESS
Not the random things you find every 50 miles.
here's your town with empty damn space
What i ment by the dragon claws is that you're comparing OLD metal claws into a weapon ripped from a dragon's arm.
What i mean by old, is that there's currently a graphic update in progress, and dragon claws hasn't been updated yet.
edit
Can you please exlpain how does hobgoblin look similar to a normal goblin
edit2
Now that i bothered to log in, by detail i mean detailed vs not detailed.
I'm not talking about detailed vs not detailed.
Also, i know that the graphics in WoW are better, thats obvious.
It's just incredibly hard to explain what i'm talking about to a wow fanboy who hates runescape.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 07:48I'm not quite sure what's your problem of ignoring my points.
Who said I was talking about realism? i'm not trying to prove that runescape graphics are realistic or ps3 quality. I'm saying that even thought runescape is restricted to java and a browser, it's graphics doesn't suck.
For an MMO today, yes, its graphics do suck. The fact that it is restricted to java and a browser is merely poor design. If they were smart, they'd do what EE has done and make their own plugin/client. And I didn't say you were talking of realism, I said Vader was talking of realism.
I can link pictures of Varrock and Falador town squares, or the center area of the Ardougne marketplace, or the area in front of Camelot's gates, and call them empty pointless space, too. Every single space you linked a picture of has a point. That point is to be empty space, where people can stand and such, as you so aptly showed with the "damn" link.
The scim in the second pic still looks like something out of polygon hell, only not such a deep, dark pit as its older incarnation was from. I'd say it's probably from the Ring of the Slightly Damned Polygons. *the rest of this section of my post is directed at Darth, not Tsun*
And it's still horribly, terribly undetailed compared to the weapons of WoW. And when I say undetailed, yes, I mean unrealistic. By unrealistic, I mean this looks pretty close to this, aside from the glowing effect that is quite clearly part of the fantasy element. Certainly much closer than the updated rune scimitar does to this with a teal colored blade.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 07:48edit
Can you please exlpain how does hobgoblin look similar to a normal goblin
When I played, a hobgoblin looked like a bigger, orange goblin. Apparently, that has changed, and I concede that the difference is now basically the difference between an Orc and an Uruk'hai in the LotR movies. However, everything else I have pointed out does basically look just like its other reincarnations, from what I can tell.
Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 07:48edit2
Now that i bothered to log in, by detail i mean detailed vs not detailed.
I'm not talking about detailed vs not detailed.
I'm talking about the second comparison. I never said that RS stuff doesn't have all sorts of useless clutter(and yes, it is useless clutter), i just said that RS stuff looks horrible. Also, the second link in that little edit also does not work. Please stop wasting my time with broken links. EDIT: working now. Anyway, WoW can have useless clutter, too. Most people turn the "clutter density" and "clutter distance" options all the way down, or at least really low, when they play, though, so most screenshots don't show it. When I get home, if you like, I can happily get you a picture from an inn in WoW that looks much the same as your "detailed" bar picture, but with better graphics, and maybe even more useless clutter.
Yes, it is obvious. It's also one of the reasons why I hate runescape. Another is there are people who play runescape, like Darth Vader, who seem to think that the graphics in WoW aren't better.Quote | Tsun posted on 10.28.09 | 07:48Also, i know that the graphics in WoW are better, thats obvious.
It's just incredibly hard to explain what i'm talking about to a wow fanboy who hates runescape.
And I understand what you're saying. Empty space should be full of useless clutter, otherwise it's boring and useless. That is what you're saying with that post. Just because something isn't cluttered, though, doesn't mean it doesn't look good, have meaning, or even have a purpose.
on an entirely unrelated note, rofl@todays comic
Haw haw haw! Tsun, anyone can see that you're just a copy-and-paste of that other Atavian, Bob!
Yuk yuk yuk!